DOTW: Gutenberg! It's almost here, are you excited? don't care? (Participation = 3 Points)

The first ever DOTW was on Gutenberg and seeing as how it’s official release(WP 5.0) is right around the corner… it’s time for another!

Last time we talked about Gutenberg it was shortly after Matt’s WCUS State of the Word where he focused on it heavily. This time we’re right after WCEU where he gave another Gutenberg update in his keynote. Skip to the 6:00 mark for the Gutenberg update, lasts about 10 mins before the Q&A starts.

For the TLDW check out this Gutenberg update post from wp.org.

Onto the questions, they are the same as the first DOTW! Will be interesting to see if the response has changed at all over the past 6 months.

1. Where do you sit on the Gutenberg train? Excited about it, dreading it, undecided?
2. What integrations would you like to see between our products and Gutenberg? If any.

The big change related to Gutenberg from our end since the last DOTW is that we’ve retired Upfront to focus more on compatibility with the popular themes and page builders out there, including of course the forthcoming Gutenberg. Forminator will be the first of our products to get actual integration with Gutenberg in the form of Gutenberg blocks for each element (quizzes, forms, and polls), expect that in version 1.4 due out August.

Besides that we are focusing on compatibility in the sense things won’t break when Gutenberg is added into core, but more to come on our Gutenberg integrations/compatibility in the coming month as it nears initial release.

--------------------------

-At least one comment = 3 Hero Points(must participate within 7 days of thread post date)
-DOTW = Discussion of the Week
-Last DOTW: CLIENTS AND THE WP-ADMIN! HOW INVOLVED ARE THEY?

  • HeatherFeuer

    If Gutenberg is made part of the WordPress core, I will either figure out how to disable it or find myself a new CMS to work with. I can't think of a worse decision by the WordPress developers. At the very best, it should remain only a plugin. Do they not read the reviews left by unhappy users?

    I currently use either WP Bakery Page Builder or Elementor to create pages. I am NOT interested in a product that doesn't work as well as either of those.

  • Tony G

    To dove-tail with Heather's response: The nature of my business is to try to find where the wind is blowing, and then try to gear up for selling new products and services that might be in demand as people become aware of new technology. It's very tough to take too much time to do that because sometimes new tech fails us and I find myself with lots of investment in a passing fad. But that's the game for me - trying to pick the winners. And sometimes I find myself a bit late to adopt industry favorites, then I need to catch up.

    So with something as huge as Gutenberg, sentiments like Heather's strong, my approach to this will be very conservative. I am not criticizing the initiative and don't really care about the current status of the new paradigm. I'm sure that whatever is in there that needs work will be improved. That's how these things work. But while I choose to endure the growth cycle for some tools, I need stability for my core tools. So I'm going to let the first few versions roll out, let others feel the pain on this one (where I'm usually the Alpha/Beta guy), and try hard to use Gutenberg as minimally as possible. When there is a general sense that it's starting to make it's way from rebelious adolescence into maturity, I'll take more interest.

    In this WP industry, while we know the core developers will be aggressively doing everything they can to keep WP users and developers happy, I don't have as much faith in the plugin developer community. As with most FOSS developers, WP plugin developers initially show a lot of passion for whatever shiny object interests them, they get others hooked on their new cool tools, and then they move on to the next thing. Except for the bigger shops, it's going to take a while before this developer community is publishing stable plugins that work well with Gutenberg. I expect some added pain as we get a release with some issue, time passes until it's fixed in core, then more time passes until individual developers catch up to provide base functionality for the common website visitor. I expect we're going to lose a lot of plugins where the developers would prefer to move on to something new than to update their plugin for Gutenberg. That's going to leave a lot of WP admins very unhappy.

    That's just one scenario that I think will play out. We've already seen that the marketing for this initiative was really poorly managed, poorly introduced to the public. I think there are people who are writing great software, forcing themselves into positions where they need to manage a platform and a social community - those skills are very different. We're feeling the pain of that. Gutenberg might indeed be the best thing to happen to this software, but the failures of its management have resulted in huge amounts of bad feelings in the user base. It's these (lack of) management issues that compel me to feel very reserved about this whole thing.

    Fortunately for me, my life doesn't depend on WP. But I have just enough invested in this that I want to see this core shift move as quickly as possible. So I'm getting out the popcorn and will watch with interest how it all unfolds, hoping for the best, expecting a little less.

  • Jaxom

    Well this will be interesting Tyler Postle

    Personally DREADING IT!! Really Annoyed that the Gutenberg team are still ignoring a huge portion of the WordPress community and I can see a massive drop in market share coming that way.

    As lots of people have different opinions on this issue as is proved by the pretty split 5 stars to 1 star reviews on the plugin so I have decided to show you what I am so worried about.
    This is what happens when you turn on Gutenberg and go to page editor.

    Now what am I suppose to do with that mess?

    Now lets see what happens if I turn off page builder and look at my front page using just Gutenberg.

    YES, That is what my home page now looks like to the world, half of it is missing, my slider has vanished into thin air and so have two text blocks and we are the ones that are going to have clients yelling at us about how to fix it.
    The second lot of clients that will go bat sh*t crazy are my bloggers who will now need to be trained in how to use something they already know how to use.

    Now for another Gutenberg Issue, I use Query Monitor on our own site to ensure it always loads quickly (we disable it on clients sites and only use it to debug).
    Page Builder save page = 5.24 seconds, Gutenberg Page Editor save page = 25.82 seconds

    So personally and with over 45 years of coding experience (yes I started with MS basic) and 8 years of playing with WordPress and 5 years running a WordPress Support company this is the biggest mistake WordPress have ever made and it's likely to cause such a backlash that people will leave the WordPress community and move to another CMS never to return as they feel ignored.

    I have expressed my concern on numerous occasions and always get a canned response from Tammie Lister. (I do feel a bit sorry for Tammie as she gets yelled at daily by frustrated developers)

    Jaxom

    PS. They say 100,000's of testers and real life users by August but only 10,000 downloads??? Obviously they can't add either.
    PPS. These tests were run today with the latest version of the plugin :slight_smile:

  • Paul

    Who cares about Gutenberg! I think there's already a plugin to bring back the old editor. Not that that's any good either ????

    I use visual composer on some older sites, and now Elementor. There's "blocks" in there as well. Lots of pre-designed stuff as well.

    WordPress has to put out something that can compete with their technology as well as their designers for me to even consider looking into it ????

  • jcakec

    I think this push will work towards a very good interface builder. It'll take it's time to get there, though, as most users have found other block editors (that make a mess if you move out of them) like Divi, but even Divi is going to integrate with Gutenberg soon enough, and that's when everybody will start using it in full. I'll not move the sites I have to Gutenberg right away, it'll be a few cycles before I do it.

  • Larry Levenson

    Yeah, I'm totally with jcakec on this topic. Gutenberg? Meh! I'm a solid BeThemes guy, with plenty of block editors and related tools. I can't see that Gutenberg is anything I need to deal with right now -- but yes, ultimately, it will likely rule the Wordpress universe.

    And that's not a bad thing. It's just different. People will get used to it, just like we've gotten used to the crazy visual editor we've been using since what was it? WP 2.0? And why couldn't I see my sidebars?? And how can I understand what the entire page would look like in my "visual" editor?

    These things all get sorted out (and improved) over time, and then become the accepted norm. I'm taking a back seat to Gutenberg.

  • Kelvin

    As several have said Gutenberg will eventually become 'accepted' by the majority many iterations from now. Thankfully I no longer have any clients using the basic editor so will have no retraining issues to deal with.

    The WordPress development team do a wonderful job overall but do seem to get stuck in a rut from time to time and Gutenberg seems to be a classic example of this.

    From my point of view I will avoid it completely and use Elementor.

  • warpedmind

    Overall, I think it's a good move. It just makes sense. However, in a way, I do feel like WP is kind of biting the hands that feed it. What I mean is, many theme design companies make their money creating themes that do what Gutenberg will do. That kinda sucks. I mean, these companies also help WP be the popular platform it is... but it's like WP is trying to steal its thunder. Not only that, many of us have spent money on these themes and WP kinda negates some of that. Not cool.

    That said, a good product must always evolve to be a better product. I just feel it's kinda a low blow to faithful 3rd party providers. One could reason that WP's stepping up its game will force some healthy competition and all these providers will need to step it up as well.

    My other concern is now we're going to have conflicts and compatibility issus. It's just bound to happy.

    So, Gutenberg... not sure how I feel. I can see both sides of this. Personally though, I love Elegant Themes and Divi and am excited to see what they do from here.

  • Rickard

    I think it was about time for WP to do some changes to the editor, and Gutenberg feels like a step in the right direction. I trust the developers not to release it until it is backward-compatible with existing content on sites. For new sites, it will be great, and clients like the new editor - it's fresh and easy to use.

    As mentioned by others, in time Gutenberg will be accepted by the majority of the community. Change is scary, even when it's slow and expected.

  • Baldafrican

    I am really excited in the direction Wordpress is headed but am a little apprehensive when it comes to the transition. As others have stated the almost unknown element of what is going to happen when you upgrade (Jaxom 's example is gold) to the latest version and include the editor. Not sure how the plugin for the old editor is going to work when implemented either. So I will probably jump on the 'wait-and-see' bandwagon and wait for it to have a few issues ironed out first.

    The other issue that I have is backwards compatibility. Correct me if I am wrong but Wordpress5.0 will only run on PHP7.0+ right? What happens to some of the sites that are still relying on older versions for software that they had developed and is not optimal for PHP7 yet. I know the simple answer is to get the client to upgrade but due to budgets that is not always feasible.

    Anyways, lets 'wait-and-see.'

  • splaquet

    i'm kinda surprised at how many replies have leaned towards *nay*, and so few seem to be only swaying towards *yay*.

    a forced changed is never good, but i must be missing something... because i haven't seen anywhere that's saying that they're going to force it on us. (granted, my primary knowledge comes from watching the #WCEU video from 6 - ~16 minute marks)

    i've learned that most of my clients *MUCH* prefer a visual editor. at that, the current visual editor still boggles most of my clients. most of them end up finding their comfort zone on VisualComposer. from what i've read and from what i've seen, it would appear that Gutenberg simply takes most of the native [vc_] shortcodes and incorporates them into their system. whereas, i understand where this might throw off the purists/coders out there, this is probably an easy(er) transition for the noobs out there.

    a product is only as good as it's future roadmap. no roadmap, no future. progress and developments are what drive new technology. if you stay in the past and listen to the voices, rather than do what it takes to move a product forward... well, simply put, you'd become a MySpace.

    There are too many CMS options out there, to fall in the way of them. I've worked with clients who work on Real Estate to Medical based CMS platforms. IMO, it's all about finding your target market is and catering to making their lives easier. All of the real WordPress developers and coders out there will have plenty of options to work around Gutenberg, and/or remove it from their builds. I'd find it very hard to believe that a platform like WordPress would ever force anything on you... well, other than Hello Dolly :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    • Jaxom

      Hi splaquet
      It is being forced on us, it comes out in WordPress 5.0 regardless of:

      a.) We don't think it's ready yet for core release.
      b.) We would rather it was left as a plugin for a while yet.
      c.) Our concerns with the speed of implementation (The original Road Map had it in 4.0 )
      d.) Our requests that it be included with the ability to turn it off if it is going into the core.
      e.) Huge people like Yoast have asked for a slow down and been ignored.
      f.) The beauty of WordPress is it's target market is not one part of the market but the whole web.
      g.) If we want to use a page builder there are better ones out there already.
      h.) Slow the integration down and let it mature naturally. If it's any good people will use it and then integrate it in to the core. If it's crap (Still has huge issues and is not ready for the core by any bodies standards) we continue on as we are.
      I.) On this ONE ISSUE, Stop ignoring the communities concerns and listen to us.
      j.) Some 80% of all WordPress.org plugins will either not work, not be updated or will be abandoned all together. (source - Yoast of Yoast SEO and I agree with that figure)

      Jaxom

  • Tuomas

    I've never liked the "Classic" editor and have a kind of "any change is an improvement" attitude towards this. I do too believe, as some others already said, that Gutenberg will become a great editor one day. It just hasn't got there there yet.

    I'm already using it on a bunch of my sites, and it's working well enough as long as you don't try to paste any rich text (my employee's attempt today didn't end very well). I've actually been already using it on a few new production sites. I figured it would be better to start clean with a little sub-par Gutenberg than to start with something else I don't really like and then have possible migration issues later.

    I've tried various alternatives in the past, but I'm yet to find an editor that I would really, really like.

  • Manuel

    The ''Nays'' seem to have the ''iiis/eyes'' in this thread.
    Reading through this DOTW in general. It is understandable that some members rather not have Gutenberg coming out.
    I have to say that I gave Gutemberg a go, and asked ''Master of the Internet-Google'' - '' What do you think about the new wp gutemberg editor'' ( without aspens ('' ) and without the question mark (??); the good and the ugly and a very long linkhere that explains what gutemberg will bring to the fore for everyone including wp developers.
    Then asked the same question (as above), in French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish, from same ''Master of the Net'' (I wouldn't dare adding these links here), but in general and in my opinion from what I read, there is little to fear; there are more for, than against.
    The major factor, in all cases, seems to be the easiness of usability how one can create everything in blocks and with that single (+) plus sign for good measure!
    For a Beta quick test gutemberg here
    WP Gutemberg's editor to me represents no more than an innovative (wp) process that takes over the ''payable theme builders'', (including Upfront), for/in the creation of websites.
    Who can we blame?
    Without Developers contribution to Gutenberg's creation, it just wouldn't exist.
    I compare and equivalate this to no other the many technologies and systems that, nowadays take over human knowledge and one is forced to embrace or perish.
    Cheers,

    Manuel

    • Jaxom

      Hi Manuel
      I'm not a full Nay, I (like a lot of other developers and a few rather big names in the world of WordPress) would just like them to slow down a bit more. It has been a fight to get it delayed this long. The first Implementation date would have been a total nightmare if they had stuck to it.
      The issue is not with the builder itself but with the speed of inserting it into the core when it is still not ready for that and a severe lack of testing in the real world.
      Let us play with it some more, use it to build new clients sites and work out all the kinks and then have an open discussion on when it should go into the core. Also an off switch for those clients who's sites will turn into an almighty mess if it's on.

      Change is good, ignoring the community is not.

      I am about to build my first non test bed site for a new client using it, so I will let everyone know how it goes.

      Jaxom

  • Tyler Postle

    Hey everyone,

    First off, I just want to say I'll be away a few days this week so we'll extend this DOTW for this week as well. Anyone who replies by Tuesday(and everyone who already has replied) will get 6 points, 3 for each week. Anyone who replies after Tuesday will get the regular 3 :slight_smile:

    Secondly, interesting response so far! I too expected more people to have warmed up to it a bit more by now.

    I definitely think it's in the right direction as some others have said. The current editor is terrible for beginners! Feels more and more out-dated every time I use it, which I suppose it is lol.

    In the next WP update they will likely have the opt-in or opt-out of Gutenberg option, and if you opt-out it will install this plugin: https://wordpress.org/plugins/classic-editor/

    Although, I'm sure there will come a point where it will either stop being supported or at least plugins/themes you use will stop supporting classic, just how it goes.

    This post that Robby, one of the founders of Beaver Builder, wrote gives good perspective on it imo: https://www.wpbeaverbuilder.com/page-builders-gutenberg-world/

    It's from after WCUS last year, but this quote stands out to me:

    Gutenberg is the self-proclaimed editor of the future, but Matt also mentioned that they're designing Gutenberg for new users. I think there's always going to be another level of customization and features that Page Builders can provide. Hopefully, Gutenberg will successfully increase WordPress' market share. When those new users are ready to take their designs to the next level, we'll be there!

    I agree with it. Most of us here aren't beginners to WP so Gutenberg isn't really for us, not in it's initial state anyway, and page builders like Beaver Builder or Elementor will adapt to build some cool stuff on top of it for all of us I'm sure, and work along side it.

    I do hear all the concerns on whether it's actually ready to be added into core or not though, def a very valid concern, I haven't used the latest versions enough to comment on that. Also, if all the third party developers are ready or not. I suspect a major pain point will be the popular plugins or themes that aren't being well supported, pretty much what Tony G alluded to - Gutenberg issues won't be addressed and then they'll just scrap it altogether, but if the support is that lacking then they probably would have eventually died off anyway. Gutenberg will just be the accelerant.

  • Justin Nealey

    I am not too excited about Gutenberg. I talked with someone that helps work on core and he's assisted a small amount with it showing me the site he built. It looked nice but I'm unsure how well it's going to jive with other page builder type plugins. I guess only time will really tell!

    I want to be optimistic about the integration because if it goes badly, we're all left dealing with it!

  • gagabytes

    Hmmmm.... I haven't tried the Gutenberg beta nor exicted about this. The release of Gutenberg could mean busy days to check all issues on all websites after the update (hope not). Though the main page builder that I have been using says, they they are ready. And when it is released, the builder content will represent as block.
    I still not yet know my concern about this. I guess, I am looking forward (A Bit) to the day when it happens. Meanwhile, it is a good thing to be prepared as we always left to deal with the issues.

Thank NAME, for their help.

Let NAME know exactly why they deserved these points.

Gift a custom amount of points.