DOTW: Hiring for WP related jobs (Participation = 5 Hero Points)

Next DOTW: How did you initially find WPMU DEV?

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When building a website there often comes a time where your client(or yourself) wants something that you either don’t know how to do or are too preoccupied with other tasks and don’t have time to do.

Either way, if it needs to happen then you have two options… learn how to do it and make time for it OR hire someone else to do it! This week’s DOTW will focus on the latter :slight_smile:

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I feel like this discussion could go in a number of different directions... I’m going to list some questions as usual just to get things going, but please feel free to chime in with anything related to the subject, look forward to seeing where this goes :smiley:

1. What WP related jobs have you hired for? Or tried to hire for (graphic design, coding, marketing, etc. if you have at all)
2. Do you recommend(or recommend against) any specific jobs boards or related services?
3. Do you have any tips to share on quality hiring? Or applying.
4. Have you ever used our WPMU DEV Jobs Board? If not, do you think you would ever post a job or look to hire within the WPMU DEV community?

That last question stems from a conversation in another thread(this whole DOTW did actually). You may not have known about our Jobs Board since we removed it from the main navigation some time ago. We found members tended to go elsewhere for their hiring needs if they needed to hire at all.

So, this DOTW has a couple of goals:

1. Share useful information on hiring/applying for WP jobs and related services
2. Feedback on our Jobs Board. Are there enough people interested in it to bring it back into the limelight? Or perhaps we could do some new features for the main DEV profile to make it more virtual CV / Linked In-esque? Or maybe no one cares :smiley:

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-At least one comment = 5 Hero points (must comment within 7 days of thread being posted)
-Last DOTW: Who is your favourite host? And why?
-DOTW = Discussion of the Week

  • Titanium Creative

    I am disappointed that it is not featured more. I have gotten a few well-paying jobs, that became short term repeats, through it.

    We help each other a lot here in the forums. I and others have actually taken time to write full-on code for people, but there are times when someone, especially the straight plugin users, need something more than basic support. They need someone who can put together a bit of custom code, or help with content/set up issues.

    What better place to look for that assistance than though the WPMUDEV pros/jobs board?

  • Phil Bochi

    Before going else where I would use the job board to post a job. The only thing I believe most of us here are web developers, graphic designers, web designers, which is not what I'm looking for. Granted there are times where there are programming situations that are over my head for times like that I would post here.

    There are times that I am looking for a content writer I honestly do not think of posting that type of job here. I'm guessing it's because I really don't know how many writers are here or people in video product as I need that from time to time as well.

  • Bill

    The last time I needed code work was before I became a member here. The few times I needed something particular, I either went to Fiverr or was able to get code through the original developer of the code I was trying to modify.

    I was aware of the WPMUDEV Job Board, I just have not had the need to use it over the last year. I have either been able to get an answer here in the forums or found what I needed out on the net.

  • Zen

    In response to Question 4

    I have looked at the jobs board for WPMUDEV but never used it as I did not feel so attracted to it. I looked at the developers there but concluded that there was not so many. Also many did not offer any sort of NDA which was important as much as being trustworthy in regards to ideas and so on. I was unable to write and agree online contracts and terms which meant additional time spent and so eventually as much as I would have used a more detailed service - I just could not afford the time in setting up the freelancer.

    I would encourage the WPMUDEV to develop this aspect as it would be useful and helpful. Upwork has a strong model that can be looked at for inspiration.

    I generally do not like none specific job boards and the recruitment process for IT is very difficult. I would trust a jobs board that purely focussed on the subject specialism of design/IT/Networking/Infrastructure etc.

    Thanks, Tyler and I hope that helps.

  • DigiBlueArc

    1. I've used fiverr for logos and upwork for api work
    2. I don't like fiverr's strong upsell. Sure they promote $5 graphics but to get the layered files, it's minimum of $40 and then they upsell hard. What good is an image without the layered files.

    I have found excellent programming on upwork, but I spec out specifics in great details so there can be no questions what I need. I'm about to post new work for my blockchain and plan to put it on freelancer, as well as, upwork.

    3. Details, details and then more details. I leave nothing to the imagination when I spec out programming. I find that hiring programmers in countries like India and Pakistan don't understand our culture here in America. So as long as I give them specifically what I need, I get good work for a great price. The Philippines has been really good to me hiring programmers and they seem to understand our culture.

    4. The WP boards are much higher price than I pay.

  • Nick Simpson

    I have outsourced work for years on a variety of sites. If my needs are WP specific, I have used the job board here and had a great experience both times. This was a year or so back and I don't know if it has changed or not, but I was a touch uncomfortable with paying the developers directly, partially upfront. I never got burned, but I think having WPMU be a middle man in cash transactions to assure the work is completed prior to sending ones money on, would certainly make me more likely to utilize it more often.

    Fiverr is just like any other site that offers freelancers to connect to people who need services. I look for people who have lots of reviews (and I mean lots!) before I even seriously consider them for work. I know everybody has to start somewhere on these sites, but they don't have to start on my dime.

    Most sites like upwork and the likes, I find the most difficult part for me is the language barrier many times. I have found some good and some bad work, but the communication can be painful at times, just trying to get remedial ideas across. However, you do get what you pay for, if you work with a larger budget, this will most likely not hinder your experience.

    I have outsourced some custom menu design work and complex site moves here on WPMU and both of these jobs went swimmingly well. I love to keep the money in the community when I can!

  • Dean

    The issue for us with outsourcing is finding the right people for the job, at the right price. We obviously want quality to be consistent with our own in house work, but we still need to add a little mark up while still remaining competitive.

    We find that one issue with these outsourcing sites is the prices are so low. While that sounds good at first after looking at their portfolio, when you see the quality of the result it often leaves a lot to be desired as it is not to the quality of the portfolio. When you try to work out how much the freelancer gets paid you can then often understand why this is though.

    On the other hand if you go directly, prices are often too high and so its hard to find the right balance of quality and price.

    Saying that we usually only outsource work that either I despise doing, or that I know I am not skilful at so would take me a lot longer than someone who does this every day. For me that is copy writing and graphic design work.

    • Titanium Creative

      As a creative resource, I understand what you are saying. Price vs profit is always a concern, but unless you are trying to make unreasonable profit, that shouldn't be an issue. You should always be able to markup a resource around %17.5 - 20%.

      I have worked on small projects over the years that I know were test cases prior to giving me larger projects. that seems to be a good way to go. You can always save the project if you need to. but once you find a source or sources you need to be loyal to them. The organizations that suffer the most are the ones that are constantly trying to get a better price rather than a quality product.

      For the end user, the cost of programming is a drop in the bucket. For the agency, they can markup the cost. There really is no reason for low-balling something as critical to infrastructure as programming.

      As for finding people here, you can look at the Pros and see who is active and what they have to say on various subjects. Pick the ones that sound like they know what they are doing as it pertains to your project and then reach out to them.

      I'm not sure I would trust any old fish that takes my bait. But, if I can spear the right one, I am more likely to enjoy the meal. (Not sure how I feel about that metaphor but I'm sticking with it.)

      • Dean

        Hi Titanium Creative,

        Thanks for your input, but I think you misunderstood my comment, or perhaps I am misunderstanding yours. We don't outsource programming work. We only outsource copy writing and graphic design work from time to time.

        The point I was trying to make is that these outsourcing sites are so competitive that a lot of freelancers using them are trying to undercut each other. This leads to poor quality as they just can't afford to spend any time on the project with such a low budget. However, outsourcing to another agency often leaves very little room for markup, as you are paying market rates. Hope I am making sense here.

    • Jaxom

      Hi Dean
      I have picked up a few clients who thought they were getting a great deal that turned out to be a horrible experience.
      One in particular comes to mind, the client had used PeoplePerHour and paid for a new website.
      The client went back to the person as they weren't happy with a few things and ended up calling us as the person never responded once the first job was done.
      We went in to fix the issues and what we found was a mess and the site brought a whole new meaning to the word "Key Word Stuffing". We fixed everything and 3 years later we still have the client as a full support and hosting client

  • 247web

    Job board - definite +1 - WPMU could build a better quality job board all round (so that we are not forced to use other dubious job sites). The process would need to be (1) easy but as (2) secure as possible. I am sure a lot of members would advertise their unique skills and be available for work.

    We gave up hiring developers for anything "core" or essential to a client's website or app. Mods and maintenance became a nightmare so we do that dev ourselves. We also insist on doing our own analysis even though a client might have hired their own analyst do the web specs.

    We hire out for non-essentials like social media, seo, and blog writers, occasionally Photoshop or Affinity artists.

  • Jaxom

    Hi
    I use fiverr for straight forward graphics for clients with a tight budget and for some social media stuff but agree with the up sell comment above, it can be really annoying.
    I vaguely remember the job board but I thought it had been removed.
    I have a couple of go to people that I have collected over the years, a Graphic Designer (clients with bigger budgets) My PHP Guru for when I get stuck and a great Lady who has a way with colours and drawing up clients visions of there site pages that I can then make there site look like the pictures. (Makes it so much easier to build the site when you have an image of what they want)
    I would be very interested in seeing the jobs board brought back to life.
    We already help each other so being able to offer and pick up jobs from a place I already trust would be a great bonus.

    Jaxom

  • Michelle

    We will hire out for more complex graphic design work, but we have a few contacts already so it's not like we're out looking.
    When I was out on maternity leave last summer, I know my agency filled some gaps using someone from UpWork. (But mostly - I just worked from home, it gave me a little extra income during my leave!) As far as coding help, I pretty much do it all - but when something is a bit beyond my scope, I end up on StackOverflow (though I think I'll be looking more on these forums now that we've upgraded to membership :slight_smile: )

  • Baldafrican

    I have used Fiverr, Upwork and Peopleperhour over the years. In doing so I have managed to find a few great team members but also got burned a couple of times. If there is one thing that I did not like was that freelancers, being freelancers, were always pushing to complete the job rather than helping you to think it through by asking questions. Instead you get the "yes I understand the project specs and will start right away." only for the design to come back nothing like what was in the brief.

    I remember looking through wpmudev board before but as we do not do business in usd we found it to be a little pricey when converting.

  • gagabytes

    I have been working remotely for years. Tried several job boards, directory listings and other sorts when I was starting. I remember in year 2000, I was really petrified to do the transaction online as I was very skeptical on how I was going to get paid, what if I did not get my pay after hard work and there was so many 'what ifs'. Received many offer via email inquiries thru my school project which I first build thru geocities. That time there was not much job boards and not much info. Thus, my family business stick with traditional contract signing and agreement which involves flying tyo and fro to other countries but work done remotely.
    Until I've been introduced to Paypal. The first job board I tried was ODesk - my experience was like I've got myself in to a roomful of different crowd not knowing what to do - test, how to deal and communicate with people online with different cultures. It was a hard learning process for me - dealing with people with change mind often after one website design to another. Rules back then was not what we have today. Feel frustrated at that time as sometimes you were not getting paid fairly and treated unfairly - I left ODesk and stick with our family business. Until I discovered other job boards like Fiverr, Upwork, Freelance, Lance and I am sticking with People Per Hour. I feel the community in People Per Hour is very accomodating, not discriminating (as I am from Philippines) and I feel protected. I got most of my project and clients from there and I am being hired thru Linkedin.

    1. I am mostly hired for Wordpress job and desktop publishing works.
    2. I recommend People Per Hour and Linkedin
    3. Based on my experience, working online is building trust. When posting a job - be descriptive. When applying for the job - be honest with what you can do or not. If you can't do some specific part of the description - provide a creative alternative.
    4. I have visited the WPMU Job Board from time to time before to look but not much were listed there often. And yes, I will still look for a hire there.

    On WP Job Board, it would be much better to have a combination of People Per Hour and Linkedin. profile. Today, even we can apply directly to the companies via classified ads I have sometimes have the urge to use job boards to build trust online with a client especially to those startup companies and has no experience with remote work. Those job boards are helpful to build the right communication and serve as mediator.

    I know this is long and thank you for the time. And I don't want to end this without expressing my gratitude towards DigiBlueArc for acknowledging Philippines. And true, we have many college graduates here in my country and many don't have of our graduates either don't have the job or ended up in call center. English has been our second language.

  • Fabio Fava

    Well, that's a good point. Here's my humble experience/opinion:

    1. I'm an Implementor, not a Web Designer. So, I tend to recommend a few Web Designers to my customers when their needs go beyond my knowledge. The main point is to be honest when you don't know: this avoids a lot of mess trying to learn or implement something to someone else.

    2. I don't use any job boards, mainly because my customers are in Brasil and it's not possible to recomend someone that doesn't speak our native language. So, I have some good Web Designers that I put in touch with my customers in order to have a very personal experience.

    3. Not sure I have a good tip here. Mostly, the people I recommend is the ones I've worked with before, and that I know that they can be Professional, Kind, and eagger to help.

    4. I've been contacte a couple times, but the proposed jobs were more about Web Design (that isn't my area as I've said), so I couldn't accept. But I would be happy to get some WP implementations, specially Multisites and Multi Networks, that are my best areas.

    Anyway, I think the WPMU DEV Jobs Board could be revamped (don't really know how), in order to allow more people to know it, and maybe engaje customers hire the Professionals.

    Hope it helps, cheers!

  • DigitalPowerups

    1. What WP related jobs have you hired for? Or tried to hire for (graphic design, coding, marketing, etc. if you have at all)
    2. Do you recommend(or recommend against) any specific jobs boards or related services?
    3. Do you have any tips to share on quality hiring? Or applying.
    4. Have you ever used our WPMU DEV Jobs Board? If not, do you think you would ever post a job or look to hire within the WPMU DEV community?

    I have hired a lot of graphic designers from upwork and on occasion from Fiverr if I'm not to concerned. There are a couple on upwork I've gone back to over and over and have paid them directly.

    {TIP} I was given a tip a long time ago and it seems to work for keeping the prices slightly lower. If you put this phrase at the end of your job posting you get a lot less push back on price "This job should be easy for someone who knows what they are doing" - Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for paying well for a job well done, but we've all been there where it seems like all the applicants want more than what we feel the job is worth.

    +1 for the job board here. My impression is that I would probably be paying a premium if I hired from a WPMUDEV job board though.

  • Dustin Benner

    We do the vast majority of client related requests in house. However being a small company we all wear about 10 hats each. Non of us are graphic designers. I can limp by doing a basic logo or some basic graphics work in photoshop or illustrator but thats about the extent of it. We use to hire people via upwork or even fiverr. But I found it difficult to go back and forth with clients and the multitude of graphic designers. Just recently we found a local guy that does this so we decided to farm it out to him. Way better having someone local just my opinion. It is a bit more expensive but has been better quality of work.

    That being said I do recommend for logo design we have used PM Logos. I do believe it is a India based company. They do some great work. Speed is ok but quality is not bad. They also allow reselling of the service so it is white-label. https://www.pmlogos.com/

    Overall we have used people from several places. But lately we have found it just about as easy to start to learn some of the stuff we have needed to outsource such as major SEO work.

    That being said I personally would be interested in the jobs boards here. I love community supporting activities and always browse those.

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